OMG I knew there were Computer Geeks, Book Geeks, Movie Geeks, but I never knew there were Religion Geeks!
Hey I geek it out with tv shows like Lost so no problem.

Ok, I'll bite. Who else right?

While Jesus here was not giving a new law or changing the old, he was explaining the true meaning or significance of the law.

"The law or the prophets" speaks not only of Moses but the rest of the OT scriptures as well. This is not just about the "law." He's speaking of fulfillment in the same way that prophecy is fulfilled. He's saying He is the fulfillment of the law in all aspects.

He fit the bill. He completes it. He fulfills the promise made from the beginning. He kept it perfectly like no other man on earth could do. Not for us to do but for us to accept what he did. He satisfied God's wishes that the perfect sacrifice be met for all mankind. His keeping the law perfectly was evidenced of who he was.

Just like Adam brought sin into the world Jesus the second Adam would eradicate same sin. We had no part in either of these Adams' decisions. Yet we get to take part in both of their inheritances. One of sin and one of eradication of same sin.

We are not under the law....we are under Grace. By Grace we are saved thru faith and not of works least any should boast. Eph 2:8-9...so go ahead and put yourself under the law....that's your choice but you do not have to. Christ freed us from that bondage. The law brings us closer to him cuz we know we can't fulfill it. He already did and he did it for us

Gal 5:4: Christ is become no effect to you whosoever of you are justified of the law, you are fallen from grace.

3:4: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the spirit, are you now made perfect by flesh?

KFC,

You seem to miss what I say. Let me try saying this one more time. It is by faith that we receive the salvation. I know no believer will disagree with that. The disagreement is whether the law is done away with. You see the law as bondage and I see it as a blessed freedom! Now accepting the covenant given to those in scripture I have NEVER been more free. Nor have I been more blessed!

The law brings us closer to him cuz we know we can't fulfill it.

But through the law I have an unbelievable deeper understanding of who the G-D I serve is. His character, his love, his grace and mercy. Granted there are some laws I do not understand and may not ever understand for that matter, but I know that he put them in place for my own good just as a loving parent puts rules in the house. There was grace upon his people BEFORE Jesus came to earth. This grace idea begining at Jesus' birth has been manufactured from the Catholic church many years ago. Just as in fulfill if you look up the definition of grace there are two definitions for grace. I don't have my notes with me today but I will try to remember them tomorrow and show you the greek words for grace (unmerited favor and luster) and also the words in Hebrew. Much to my suprise when I did this study there is actually significantly more more references to grace (unmerited favor) in the OT than the NT (I think I still have my count written down). Until then you will just have to believe me till I bring that in. With that said where is this grace that eliminates the law? I have yet to see a reference in the OT that makes any REMOTE hint that the laws would be done away with. If you really want to get me to change start there. The NT references I feel are based on incomplete knowledge. Not trying to be offensive but trying to respectfully state why I disagree. It is extremely hard to understand Paul because it would be like reading Computer Scientist's paper with having limited understanding of computers. Paul was a very learned Jew. He never rejects his past other than the persecution of Messiah believers. So in order understand his writings where would I have to go? I have to understand the Jewish mindset and teachings. It isn't until then that I find his writings unfold. You look at me from outside of the box (where I once was) and now I look at you from inside of the box. I have been where you stand and after a step of faith I am absolutely amazed and what I have found. You see Jesus is so Jewish that Christians don’t realize it. If this weren't true then he wouldn't have been the Messiah prophesized about through and through the OT. So please correct me if you think I am wrong and show me where in the OT where it says that the old Laws will be done away with. In Ezekiel, and Zechariah I find that the feasts will still be observed after his second coming. Here let me give you an example of where I am coming from. Let’s go to the book of Luke for this exercise.

Luke 22:17-20 ~ ‘And he received a cup, and when he had given thanks, he said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: for I say unto you, I shall not drink from henceforth of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave to them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. And the cup in like manner after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, 'even' that which is poured out for you.’

Luke 22:42 ~ ‘Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.’

What are the cups he is referring to? You cannot get the full meaning of what Jesus is talking about and doing until you study the 4 cups of Passover and which bread he is talking about. If you think it is random you are greatly mistaken. I know that this isn’t in the Bible. This is where the Mishna (Oral law and traditions that have been written down) comes in. This is an elaboration of what can be found in Exodus 6. Here are the cups pertaining to the Hebrew word taken from Exodus 6:6-7.
1. V'hotzaiti -- "and I removed you"
2. V'hitzalti-- "and I rescued you"
3. V'go'alti -- "and I redeemed you"
4. V'lakachti -- "and I took you"

In an attempt to keep this short we’ll jump to the third cup. If you want to know more please feel free to ask. The third cup is the one he talks about being his blood for redemption of sin. We know that he is coming back to take us with him, which is why he couldn’t drink the fourth cup because that cup wasn’t fulfilled.

Without the knowledge of these traditions that have been overlooked you simply cannot understand how Jewish Jesus really is.

He fit the bill. He completes it. He fulfills the promise made from the beginning.

Please reread the article because if you use the definition presented you contradict yourself. You say it is done away with but say he fulfilled it (following the definition presented). This was not my opinion of the words but through definition. If he was to do away with the Law as you say wouldn't that have been a perfect opportunity to CLEARLY state it? To me he did state it clearly just not what I had previously believed in the past.

If you want me change my way of thinking I will help you out. Give me some OT references. I have heard all of your Galations, Ephesians, etc arguments but with arguments going back and forth (using scriptures from the same books) let’s go back to the roots. I see prophecy of Jesus’ first coming and his second coming even details of his crucifixion but have yet to find scriptures that say these laws that say “forever, and throughout your generations” will no longer exist in the OT. If you can show me beyond reasonable doubt only using OT scriptures present to me the elimination of the OT Law as you call it. Shake the firm foundation that I stand upon. For without the OT the NT loses its complete foundation. Regretfully, our discussion of NT is getting nowhere. I am saying Jesus was Jewish and the Jewish roots are the OT. So show it to me where I stand. Peace and Blessings to you.

Adventure Dude

I just gotta know though.
What is the purpose of knowing all this to the degree that you do?

just gotta know though. What is the purpose of knowing all this to the degree that you do?

If you love someone....you want to know as much about them as you can. When I fell in love, I wanted to know everything about the man I loved. His favorite food, his favorite color, his favorite things to do, etc. It's the same with us and God. The greater love the more you want to know.

God said he wants us to love him with our whole heart, soul and MIND. Dude and I are using our minds. The bible says...iron sharpens iron. By going thru this, we learn and when we learn we love God even more as we uncover truths about Him that we may not have seen before.

So Sushik.....do you love God?

What is the purpose of knowing all this to the degree that you do?

Excellent question.

By digging into the Bible and understanding the scriptures written in the context that they are written one can then begin to understand the G-D of the Bible. The amazing thing is the more you dig the more you find. It is a book you can constantly find new things. It is also a book that I base my life around, how to live, how to treat other, purpose in life, etc. Which is another reason for digging more. I believe that this book is written with divine inspiration and it tells me a good way to live. Hope that answers your question.

Adventure Dude

I believe in a god but not in religion.

And I agree with ya! But unfortunately I have to sift through religions to find out some of the traditions to better understand different things. Religion is based from man. My doctrine is the Bible. I know I don't follow it perfectly but I keep myself flexible so that I can change when I am presented with evidence where I am mistaken. But as for 'religion' I agree with you. I put my faith in G-D. Glad to hear you do too.

It is by faith that we receive the salvation.

Agree...no problem here.

There was grace upon his people BEFORE Jesus came to earth.

Agree here as well.

You see Jesus is so Jewish that Christians don’t realize it.

Only because God chose the Jewish people to have favor upon. God is not Jewish or Gentile. He could have had favor on the Amelikites if he wanted to. One of the reasons he picked the Jews was to call a people for his name that would be a light to the rest of the world, set apart. Also it was to bring the Savior into this same people. The jews were no better than the rest. They were human and did the same bad things as the heathens did. God did indeed have grace (unmerited favor) upon them. Otherwise they would be in the same boat as the rest. They really needed this grace. They were a sorry lot.

Give me some OT references

Jer 31:31-34 is one of my favorites: Behold the days come says the Lord that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband to them says the Lord. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days says the Lord I will put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts and will be their God and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor and evey man his brother saying, Know the Lord; for they shall all know me from the least of them unto the greatest of them says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity and I will remember their sin no more.

The principal OT passage on the New Covenant. See also Isa 59:20-21, Jer 32:37-40, Ezek 16:60-63; 37:21-28. It will be made in the future with the whole nation of Israel (v31) and it will be unlike the Mosaic covenant in that it will be unconditional (v32) Its provisions will include a change of heart, fellowship with God, knowledge of the Lord and forgiveness of sins. All of this will be fulfilled completely for Israel when the Lord returns, (Rom 11:26-27).

In contrast to the Mosaic Covenant (which Israel failed) God promised a NC which was spiritual and divine. This covenant was announced by Jesus in Luke 22:20 as you mentioned. Even tho this is mostly future it has already started to take place with a remnant, Romans 11:5.

The book of Hebrews is very helpful here as well. Check out 8:6-13, 9:15, 10:14-17, 12:24, 13:20. He ratified this new covenant with his blood. Sealed it.

I see prophecy of Jesus’ first coming and his second coming even details of his crucifixion but have yet to find scriptures that say these laws that say “forever, and throughout your generations” will no longer exist in the OT.

I think the above OT quotes I gave you will help you here. Like the one in Ezek 37:26: Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them and I will place them and multiply them and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Do you see the future here? This is OT. This is what Paul was talking about in the NT. You should really look really close especially to Galatians, Hebrews and Romans.

No time left...will get back on the cups tomorrow maybe!!

Keep plugging.

KFC

Shake the firm foundation that I stand upon.

1 Cor 10:12....Wherefore let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

Regretfully, our discussion of NT is getting nowhere

Is that because you are so grounded in the OT you have no use for the new? You are completely happy to stay there?

What makes you any different than a Jew? You want the OT and Jesus. But you seem out of place in the NT scriptures. Where are you spending the bulk of your time? With the OT or the NT? The Old Covenant or the New Covenant? The words of the NT are just as much his as they are in the OT.

You are young and you have much to learn. I'm still learning as well. We will never stop. I believe you have a very teachable spirit. You are way ahead of where I was when I was your age. God is really going to be able to use you as you continue to grow in grace and KNOWLEDGE!!

One of the reasons he picked the Jews was to call a people for his name that would be a light to the rest of the world, set apart. Also it was to bring the Savior into this same people. The jews were no better than the rest. They were human and did the same bad things as the heathens did. God did indeed have grace (unmerited favor) upon them. Otherwise they would be in the same boat as the rest. They really needed this grace.

But who is a Jew by your definition. What about the righteous converts? They were Hebrews being called out or crossing over. You are right there wasn't anything special about them as I study the OT and NT I see so many of the same human mistakes as I do. WE ALL NEED THIS GRACE!!!

Jer 31:31-34 is one of my favorites:

Yes this prophecied a new covenant but it doesn't say that the old will be done away with. Let me ask you this. With this New Covenant that has "done away with" does that include Noah's covenant that he won't destroy the earth by water again. Should I start worrying about a global flood? I can't. I believe that covenant still exists as with the others. Let me give you my perspective for your scriptures. The very last part of verse 34 For I will forgive their iniquity and I will remember their sin no more. This is a specific covenant that he talks about. Not all the law as many say. Jesus because our redemption of sin. We no longer bring an animal during Yom Kippor (Day of Atonement) to the priest to sacrifice for our atonement (temporary pardon). Jesus is the enduring sacrifice for us. So really the law is still there just now it is internalized (our redemption).

Quick comments on:
Isaiah 59:20-21- This talks nothing about doing away with the law. In fact in Verse 21 it supports the law. The words that were put in his mouth shall not depart!
Maybe this is a misreference?

Jeremiah 32:37-40- Again One heart and one way. Instead of sending plagues he chastises us in our hearts so that we will fear him. Same thng just different approach. Nothing that says the law will be done away with.

Ezekiel 16:60-63- It just states a new covenant but doesn't say that the laws are done away with. In fact Verse 60 says I will remember my covnenant with the in the days of thy youth. Hmmm doesn't say it will be done away with. A new covenant doesn't eliminate all previous. If so then what about the rainbow?

Ezekiel 37:21-28- Verse 24 says they shall walk in my ordinances (the laws) and observes mine statutes (the feasts) and DO THEM. It looks to me that you are only supporting my point of view. Verses 26-28 only talk about the tabernacle becoming in their hearts. So there is still a temple/tabernacle but now it is just in the heart. Doesn't say I will be able to eat pork, that there will be a new Sabbath. The sacrifice for our sins is in our hearts eternally. We just have to stop repent and ask for forgiveness. So the law isn't done away with. It is new only because instead of a physical sacrifice of animals it takes place in our hearts. Also I would like to at the definition of peace here. Peace is summed up by harmonious relationship.

Link

This is a new covenant unlike the ones to Moses because it is in the heart. So in that regard it is new but it doesn't do away with the laws. It just says a new one unlike Moses. This is a preparation to let us know it will be different not a replacement.

Even tho this is mostly future it has already started to take place with a remnant, Romans 11:5.

Romans 11:5 doesn't even mention about the law. It is talking about obtaining grace through faith.

I see assumptions that simply aren't there. Just like in Mark 7 where in the NIV it states 'thus making all food clean'. You look in the Greek. It isn't there. They are based on vague interpretations that cannot be backed by concrete evidence. This is exactly why I recently started observing the laws.

1 Cor 10:12....Wherefore let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

If I wasn't so certain on my stance I wouldn't have said it. Please remember I used to be strickly christian neglecting the law too. The scriptures corrected me. Someone asked me the same I am asking you. I couldn't find concrete evidence that wasn't based on assumptions.

Is that because you are so grounded in the OT you have no use for the new? You are completely happy to stay there? What makes you any different than a Jew? You want the OT and Jesus. But you seem out of place in the NT scriptures. Where are you spending the bulk of your time? With the OT or the NT? The Old Covenant or the New Covenant? The words of the NT are just as much his as they are in the OT.

Wow lots of questions to answer.

To fully understand the NT you must have an understanding of the OT. There is so much I missed when I didn't understand the OT. Now it is full of so many gems that are uncountable. I hold the New to the same standard as the Old. The new gices me the perfect example of how to live! I am different than Jew because I don't know my lineage. I also don't observe the Rabbinical Traditions that I do not see based in scriptures. So to the Jews I am not a Jew and to the Christian I am not a Christian. But that's fine with me. I spend the majority of my time actually in the NT. For a period of time I stopped reading anything in the NT and strickly read OT. Now as I reread the NT I am utterly amazed at how different I see it. I don't want OT with Jesus, I have it! Thanks be to G-D! My question is am I really the one out of place in the NT? It couldn't be you? Maybe I am but I cannot see it yet. And the more I read the more I find that I am not. I accept all of the covenants. There isn't just one covenant in the old. Remember the rainbow? Or is that one done away with too?

I am trying (through prayer) to have a teachable spirit. Two years ago I would have been probably behind? Well, I do feel called to the ministry just not sure when yet. So in the meantime I am just doing everything I can to prepare.

I know G-D can use anyone who is just willing to submit themself to him. Thank you for your kind words. I am enjoying joeuser for the great discussion and encouragement for further study. So my feelings are mutual to you too.

Peace and blessings,

-Adventure Dude

You are right little whip which is precisely what I am doing. I am learning greek and Hebrew. Will maybe dabble in Aramaic later as the majority of scriptures are writting in Greek or Hebrew. Maybe that's why I have such different view than most?

Before I go and eat dinner I will just say this. Remember I told you on another thread that each covenant gets better? It's not that any are done away with per se. It's that the next one is better than the last one. Like you said, the rainbow we still see. The earth has never been flooded completely as it was during the flood in Noah's day. The law was the OT and grace which is the NT is much better.

Now having said all this. I believe we should be teaching 90% law and 10% grace which is unlike the churches today. They teach so much grace and hardly any law. While we are not under the law but under grace, we need to understand what this grace is all about. We can only do so by understanding how far we fall short of the law. How God is holy and we are not. God cannot let anything unholy in his sight and dwell with him forever.

We are trying to give People the cure (Jesus) and they don't know they are sick. Therefore they are not interested in the cure. We need to show them how sick they are and then they will be alot more interested in the cure.

It would be like me telling you, "Dude, I sold my house to cure you of your cancer." You would look at me like I was nuts and say...."okay lady...whatever."

But if you did have cancer and had no hope, you would be so grateful and grab at the chance to live. The cure is what you knew you needed. The problem with the preachers today is they are preaching Christ but not telling the people why they need Christ.

"Get Jesus and life will be a bowl of cherries." That's what they say. NO that's not it. "Get Jesus, cuz the ship's going down and he's your life saver." That's what we need to tell people. Otherwise they are not interested.

Ah-tah, Mal-koot, V'gburah, V'gdulah, Li-oh-lahm, ah-men. (hint, its from the NT, but still part of many Rabbinical rituals.)

The NT is written in Greek, not Hebrew.

Is this Kabbalah? I'm thinking the first word is "you"?

More thoughts: The NT literally means "New Covenant." The word covenant meant an arrangement made by one party which the other party involved could accept or reject but could not alter. The OT primarily records God's dealings with Israel on the basis of the covenant given through Moses at Mt Sinai while the NT describes the the new arrangement of God with men thru Christ on the basis of the New Covenant.

Ex 24:1-8 shows the OC ratified and sealed with blood. The same in the NC, Luke 22:14-20. Only not with the blood of bulls and goats but a man, a perfect unblemished man. The lamb of God.

And it does say the Old is done away with in 2 Cor 3:6-11.

Well, I do feel called to the ministry just not sure when yet. So in the meantime I am just doing everything I can to prepare.

Well this is Awesome!! We need more like you that are really searching for truth and not following every whim down the pike.

I know G-D can use anyone who is just willing to submit themself to him. Thank you for your kind words. I am enjoying joeuser for the great discussion and encouragement for further study. So my feelings are mutual to you too.

Yes, same here.

Grace & Peace

KFC