And you know this will happen because of psychic powers?

Uncovered plot.

Knowingly imprisoning a few innocents to house the guilty

Gid pointed out the achilees heel here.  Did anyone "knowingly" imprison the innocents?  You then talk about guilt by association.  That is a good point.  But until you discern the innocence of those guilty by association, how do you know they are innocent?

I dont think anyone is "knowingly" imprisoning innocents.  Imprisoning those that we are not sure are guilty, sure.  But not knowingly imprisoning innocents.

It is on the subject that we have information of a plot to bomb a building hosting thousands of people and we have evidence linking them to the plot. Do you torture them to get potential information to save the thousand innocent civilians?

Everyone always brings up this example, but not once has it happened...living in a world of hypothetical questions isn't very efficient. Sure it's good to have some forethought, but dwelling on crap that probably won't happen is a stupid idea. Do you honestly think religious zealots would tell you everything with some scrotum shocking? Faith is a powerful thing, and those with it are very hard to crack. I'm not a fan of torture...it's a pussy move and it doesn't seem to be particularly helpful. A person can make up a lot of lies to make the pain stop for awhile.

~Zoo

agreed. But then we have to have an accord on what torture really is. I do not see loud music or a overheated or cold room as torture, I do see ripping fingernails out as torture. Try to remember these are the same folk that cut of heads and other body parts of our troops and how many of the gitmo folk have been released only to be found again on the battle field killing our troops again.

The knowingly is just my perspective. Do I think everyone in jail today did the crimes they are accused of? Not hardly. Vast Majority are but I 'know' that there are a few who are innocent, just hard to tell who.

That is the real issue here. Some folks seem to have a problem distinguishing between the words torture and interrogation. True torture, inflicting of extreme pain such as using a half inch drill on the knee caps, is wrong. Interrogation is necessary.

They attempted to clarify the definitions of the two but some people are still going to claim that any sort of interrogation technique other than asking nicely and saying pretty please is torture.

Ok Mason I'll totally accept that.

Is this where the 'gray zone' begins? Distinguishing what is torture and what are allowable methods of interrogation?

Try to remember these are the same folk that cut of heads and other body parts of our troops and how many of the gitmo folk have been released only to be found again on the battle field killing our troops again.

I'm hardly sympathetic to them, if they're uncomfortable, then who gives a damn? It'd probably be better if they were dead in the first place. I don't take kindly to people trying to kill me.

I just see torture as an essentially useless information gathering tool.

~Zoo

Can you give effective interrogation tactics that don't border torture?

Yes, that's the real point of contention in this issue IMHO.

OT Alert

Arg, but then there is the rub. WHICH ones? No one in jail is there because everyone thought them innocent. Even the innocent ones are jailed because (rightly or wrongly) someone thinks they did it or something. So the issue of "knowingly jailing innocents" is a red herring. In some places it happens. And even here in some cases I am sure. But not as a policy of by most of this country (no one can speak for every corrupt citizen).

Can you give effective interrogation tactics that don't border torture?

Well, if you want to be anal about it then everything can be torture or borders torture. I'm not a sadistic mastermind...well, on second thought I am...I have some crazy things in my head. I can mindfuck someone given enough time, however, that brings up the whole debate of mental/physical torture. Physical torture is the ineffective one, plain and simple. Mental torture could work...but will leave a person severely damaged....whether or not that seems ethical is up to whoever's doing the torturing, I guess. Fear, intimidation, drug induced states, and things like that I suppose are decent interrogation techniques...if the person is bad enough to deserve it, that is.

~Zoo

Didn't I answer that question a few comments earlier?

Not trying to be anal just trying to get people to think and hear different perspectives on the issue through questions.



Let me make sure I understand your perspective.

Just as we have punishment that 'fits' the crime your position is similar when it comes to 'mental torture' (through various means that you pointed out) the level of torture is warranted by the 'threat' level?

So in my example a higher level of torture would be justified whereas severe torture for a 'non-threat' would simply be intolerable.

Have I understood your point?